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retrognosis


 The Pope on Purpose
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The other day, the Pope weighed in on the evolution debate that, really, is beginning to sweep the entire world. He called the universe the result of an "intelligent project." Now, to me, this isn't any big news. I look at the design present on the Macro level (the cosmos) and the design present at the micro level (the cell), and I see the work of intelligence. (Check out this video that puts into perspective the complexity in a single cell. Amazing.) Just seeing the appearance of design isn't enough to convince some people, however, and I would include myself in that group. But many arguments have convinced me otherwise (that design is purposeful), and now the I see the work of intelligence everywhere.

Back to the Pope. The reason that this is important is because you get a lot of religious people who look up to the Pope, who are Christians, and who also somehow reconcile a belief in non-teleological evolution with their Christianity. The Pope is saying that this is not the case and that this view does not line up with what the Scriptures, or early Church Father's, teach. If you are a Catholic evolutionist, you might be in a little bit of an awkward situation. Oh well, I'm sure they'll find some way to explain around it.

PS- If you go to article linked, check out the picture of Bernini's Chair of St. Peter in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican. (It's where the Pope is sitting) It's beautiful. Remind me to go to Rome before I die.

Also of note...a little update on the Wikipedia article I've been editing....It's been left alone for an entire 24 hours...Did someone there finally read the KBOE standards for themselves and see that I was right? Wow, a first-hand source of information, how about that.

Posted by Nathan at 10:19 PM - 10 Comments   Add a Comment  
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Dear Nathan: Your are probably aware that Catholic theologians and clerics tend to be thoroughly teleological due largely to the influence of good old Thomas Aquinas. By the way, Thomas, following the arguments of Aristotle, made the case that the universe could not be the result of random or chance contingency. Blessings.  
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by Thomisticguy (PM , CC ) on Saturday November 12, 2005 @ 10:21 PM




You're absolutely right about the Catholic Theologians, they are teleological in thought. I was speaking, though, in reference to Catholic (nominal?) scientists who perpetuate a non-purposeful evolution and a theistic belief in God. You have to majorly "bend" your theology, in my opinion, to reconcile these two views.  
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by Nathan (PM , CC ) on Sunday November 13, 2005 @ 1:33 AM




You look at the Cosmos, and a cell and see complexity. OK. Were you expecting simplicity? Of course there is great complexity in the Universe, how could there not be? You don't understand how something that complex could just be, I guess your saying. But you will accept a supreme being powerful enough (and complex enough) to create the entire Universe and everything in it through an act of will (or many acts) and that you can believe. Interesting. I wonder how much of what we believe can be attributed to early programming? Food for thought. BTW, I too was raised as a theist, catholic even. I don't claim to be smarter than anybody nor am I privy to any information that we haven't all been exposed to but I guess my reading of the evidence, if you can call it that, steers me away from any supreme being theory. There does seem to be a certain order to the Universe but maybe that's the only way one (a Universe) could exist.  
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by notacynic (PM , CC ) on Monday November 14, 2005 @ 4:32 AM




Notacynic...Ahh, I should have been more specific. I look at the cosmos, see complexity....what makes it surprising, in my opinion, is that it is a life-sustaining complexity. When you start getting into the all of the physical and cosmological constants (speed of light, gravity, rate of decay....many more, but you get the idea of what I mean), and the extremely low probabilities of them all being just so (as they are), it is pretty overwhelming, and, a pretty convincing argument for design. (in my opinion, of course.) If you're interested in this, there are some fairly recent books, "Rare Earth" and "The Priveleged Planet", that talk about this topic from differing points of view. Oh yeah, I don't think that just because the Universe is designed that a theistic belief flows from that. All I think it proves is that, at one time, their was a creator. (He could have left after creation.....this is Deism.) Maybe something to think about. (Not that you're a cynic, or anything.) :)  
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by Nathan (PM , CC ) on Monday November 14, 2005 @ 12:13 PM




Not a cynic, just a skeptic. You know, I kind of like that idea of a creator that left, it's fun to think about and play around with; it would also explain a lot. Of course the Bible talks about a Creator/God that is not only still present but actively involved in the affairs of the earth, at least back then. But of course, I don't think of the Bible as anything more than a book of stories. You think, if I read what I think I do, that the physical laws of the Universe being just as they are is an argument against randomness but really, the speed of light (for example) has to be something, there's nothing magical about the particular number, is there? The odds of the Universe being just exactly as it is might be a billion trillion to one but the odds of any other set of rules being the one are just the same. This happens to be the one that is. Maybe there are a billion trillion other universes out there, each one unique. We are dealing with infinity here, right? Anyway, if I ever find the answer I'll be sure and share it with everyone.  
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by notacynic (PM , CC ) on Tuesday November 15, 2005 @ 2:27 AM




notacynic...you bring up the exact argument that is used against the "fine-tuning" argument....the multiverse theory, that states, as you do, that there is an infinite number of universe's with an infinite number of physical laws and this is the one that allows for carbon-based intelligent life. Honestly, if you believe this, I can't really prove that you are wrong and that there isn't a multiverse. It's a theory that's becoming more popular, yet doesn't have much evidence to back it up, except that it allows for people to discard the fine-tuning argument. To believe in a multiverse theory.....why not believe in God?  
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by Nathan (PM , CC ) on Tuesday November 15, 2005 @ 9:43 AM




Of course I don't really believe the multiverse theory necessarily, I mention it as a possibility. It could be, I don't know. Neither do you. As far as why not just believe in God, there is no why, I just don't. Why would I? Because it gives me hope for eternal life? Well hope I already have, belief, not so much. I need reasons to believe things, not just, oh, it'd be nice. Believe it or not, I'm perfectly happy not "believing in" any one answer. Whatever is, is, I have no control over it, I'm never going to know all the answers, at least I don't think so, but I'm OK with that. Live until I die; if there's more after that, great! If not, I'll be unaware of my unexistence. Unless of course I really am angering God and he's going to punish me eternally for not believing.  
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by notacynic (PM , CC ) on Wednesday November 16, 2005 @ 3:41 AM




While I personally think that there are many reasons to believe in Christianity, you seem to not agree. At this point, you've probably heard all of the reasons that you can stand and you've made your decision that it's not for you, and no reason that I give is going to change your mind now. The only thing I have to say to someone like yourself is "Why not?" Let's say this Christianity thing turns out to be true, and you've rejected it. But what if you accept it because, just in case it is true, you don't want to miss out on it? If every other argument fails to convince you, this is really the last thing to ask yourself. If you still don't think "safety net" Chrisitianity is worth your time, then there is nothing left to change your mind. (that any human can do or say, that is)  
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by Nathan (PM , CC ) on Wednesday November 16, 2005 @ 1:09 PM




You are correct, I have heard them all (I think) including this "safety net" idea. My brother is one of those I guess. In fact, if you got the truth out of people, I think we would find that most so-called believers are really hedgers. They "believe" because they have been made afraid of "non-believing". I should also point out that I am NOT anti-chritian or even unchristian. If God (assuming for the moment that he exists) judges us on how we treat each other then I think I have no more reason to fear eternal damnation then you or most other "christians". My problem with christianity, or religion in general, if I have one, is this stance that they take that theirs is the way, the only way, and that any "non-believers" are wrong and (depending a bit on the particular religion) barred from heaven/condemned to eternal damnation. It's a pretty small step from there to "death to the infidels!" Even if that step is never taken it is not a very christ-like stance. If more christians would practice actual christianity it would be damn hard to find any objections to it. This is also probably true of Islam, though I wasn't raised in that "faith" and I don't know as much about it/them.  
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by notacynic (PM , CC ) on Wednesday November 16, 2005 @ 7:05 PM




My guess is that you have had some people in your life who have been outspoken Christians and perfect hypocrites at the same time. This happens alot, and it ruins many people's views of Christianity. Not to say that I, or anyone is perfect, but there is a way to live a life pleasing to God that makes othe people curious as to what is different about them, and they don't even have to be verbally outspoken about Christ, but rather, their lives speak for themselves. Thanks for the thoughts...  
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by Nathan (PM , CC ) on Wednesday November 16, 2005 @ 10:19 PM


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   
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Author: Nathan
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Age: 26
 
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